05-27-05 @ 3:25 am EDT

Important note: The comments in this entry are aimed at the GROUP (MSN Group) in question--NOT at the culture I am writing about, and NOT at *everyone* in the Group. I am referring specifically to the people in the Group who engaged in the activities I make note of here. I *do* feel I was discriminated against, though more for being an "outsider"--and for telling too much--than for anything having to do with race. Still, discrimination is discrimination...keep reading if you want.

I joined an MSN Group about the Ojibwa Indians and their culture a while back in the hopes of learning more about them. I've found a few similar Groups at Yahoo! but they ALWAYS have the stipulation that discussion of spiritual matters is out of the question. This Group had no such stipulation, so I truly hoped to learn something.

My membership was ACCEPTED, and I joined and made my first post introducing myself and stating why I was there because I did not want anyone wondering about my motives. I had no ulterior motives--honestly?--I did not even want to learn anything for the sake of my writing. You've all seen my writing. You know I write about what I've already got in my head. I went there to clarify things I had READ about and didn't fully understand. I wanted to know if they really DO believe in the manitous as real beings, or as symbolic. (That was the only question I ever got to ask, BTW.) I wanted to learn what they thought of Manabozho, of Thunderbirds, of other things. I wanted to know if they believe the manitous can hear everybody or only some people. Etc. THAT was what I wanted to learn. I do incorporate things I learn into my writing but not in the manner of taking personal info and forcing it in. My worlds are already created and I truly do not believe anything I would learn in that Group would have had any effect on my writing.

I didn't mention my writing though, just so I would avoid trouble. I know how sensitive a subject it can be. But I was honest and said I just wanted to learn.

Nonetheless, after my post, there were a few responses asking why I was REALLY there. The webmistress/owner of the Group even asked me if I was trying to stir the waters by being there. What had I said that had given that impression? :( I had been fully honest. I wonder if they treat every new member that way or just those who state they are not native...? I felt somewhat hurt that my post had not quite been believed but I understood. These are people who have been had and conned over so many times that of course some strange white person stepping in asking to learn about their spirituality would be suspicious. So I decided to brush off my hurt and try to explain myself again, even though I thought I had been as honest as I could be.

I made the mistake of mentioning my writing. If the chance ever comes, I'm not making THAT mistake again.

Another member immediately popped up and posted a very hurtful, angry post against me. Apparently they thought now that I was making fun of their beliefs, twisting everything around, and everything! This was remarkably hurtful to me when I had TWICE stated, honestly, my reasons for being there! Upset, I made the mistake of explaining myself once more. This was my most honest post ever. I explained that YES, I wrote, but NO, I wasn't doing it to make fun of or reinvent their beliefs. In fact I had hoped to honor their beliefs by writing my own CLEARLY STATED FICTION about them. I still do believe I am NOT in the wrong as long as I make it clear that I am not writing about actual Ojibwa mythology/belief but about a MODIFIED version of it that I use for FANTASY PURPOSES ONLY. Cripes! On my website even I say so and point visitors out to a link about REAL Ojibwa spirituality! And when I make things up for my writing, it is NOT out of a mockery for anything--anybody who reads this, and/or is familiar with my writing, KNOWS that I take writing very seriously, and would never, EVER do it to mock something. The only reason I write about things is because I WANT to and I'm INTERESTED in them! I was showing my respect and interest by writing!

I made it as clear as I possibly could that I WAS JUST THERE TO LEARN FOR MYSELF. That was it!

It was a long, angry yet respectful post. Still, I felt embarrassed after posting it and couldn't bring myself to read responses. So I waited a few days, wondering what to do. Then it came like a sign. A Group e-mail sent out, I'm assuming, to all members, stating that respectful disagreement was allowed so long as we were polite to each other, and members should not be afraid of posting for such a reason. Had I prompted this e-mail? I felt awful. I went back and made my apology post. I made myself clear ONE LAST TIME why I was there.

* I was not there to convert anyone.

* I was NOT WRITING A BOOK, as had been insinuated.

* I was NOT going to use information for personal gain.

* I was not going to try to learn about private/ceremonial things.

...etc. etc. I was VERY clear and succinct this time. There was absolutely no mistaking my reasons for being there. I laid it all out on the line, apologized profusely for upsetting anyone, and promised not to do it again. In fact, the webmistress already HAD answered my first question there, and by now, I was feeling rather too humiliated to try asking any more if that was the reaction I'd always get!

I still felt very embarrassed though. I did check my post a few days later and found a response by only the webmistress. She accepted my apology and told me it was okay now that I had made myself clear. I was of course welcome to remain in the Group and post, and she assured me that it was okay for me to ask questions, because that is how people learn.

I felt so immensely relieved by this! I was slightly bothered that no one ELSE replied to my post...but maybe that's the way things were. I did intend to go back and reply but got caught up in still feeling embarrassed...perhaps it would be best to lie low...and by the time I tried returning to the Groups, my account was giving me trouble and I could no longer view or log in to anything.

This was two days ago. I received an invite a while back from another member of the Ojibwa Group, who had been nice to me. She had first questioned my motives there and that had hurt a bit but again I understand the reasoning, and I had made myself clear, and since the webmistress had accepted my apology and told me I was welcome to remain, I thought everything was okay. (It never occurred to me to think that Group message *had* been prompted by me--but hadn't been meant to comfort ME at all! Keep reading...) I hadn't been back to the Ojibwa Group just yet but I checked out the second Group I was invited to. I hesitated about joining though because of all the trouble I'd caused before, plus I was having trouble with other personal things just then. So I didn't immediately join.

I browsed the messages and was saddened to learn that a member of this second Group--who was the very same webmistress of the Ojibwa Group, who had accepted my apology--had quit this second Group for personal reasons. I felt very disappointed as I had hoped to learn from her--she's Ojibwa--and I respected her opinion after her acceptance of my apology. I guessed I had just signed up too late. :( Finally two days ago I decided to try to join, but every time I did, MSN gave me trouble and I could no longer access my account. Frustrated, yesterday I finally replied to the other member's invite to let her know that I was having trouble.

I received her reply and read it tonight. I WAS in a good mood today...not anymore.

She told me that apparently MSN is giving Yahoo! e-mail addresses trouble so I would have to sign up again with a Hotmail address. It took me over a half hour just to get all this settled--I'm still not sure if I did it all right. I hate Hotmail and I only joined MSN in the first place to become a member of that Ojibwa Group! If I had only known what a waste of time THAT would have turned out to be--I never would have bothered!

For you see, it looks as if the reason this webmistress of the Ojibwa Group quit the second Group was because of ME. And likely the reason why she sent out that Group e-mail was because of ME too--but not to comfort me, but to comfort everybody ELSE in the Group--because of me!! I may be assuming a bit more importance than I really have--but this is what it sounds like. Apparently after my apology in the Ojibwa Group, there were complaints from other members. Nobody would post anymore--because they all thought I was going to use their info in a BOOK! And so WITHOUT EVEN INFORMING ME, the webmistress BANNED me from the Group--and after debating a bit with this second member, who apparently tried to defend me (I had explained myself to her in a private e-mail), she quit the second Group herself. I can't be sure that's the exact cause of these actions, but that WAS the reason why I was kicked out--other members apparently did NOT accept my apology, thought I was collecting personal info on them, and that I was going to use it for personal gain--no matter what I had said in my numerous explanations there!

Cripes, I don't even WRITE stuff like that! I write FANTASY fiction--stuff I make up! How could I POSSIBLY use people's private info in my work?? I wasn't even ASKING personal questions, and I'm not even ever going to be published! All of maybe two or three people even READ that damn story--and that story has NOTHING TO DO with the Group!

I was absolutely devastated to learn this--not only because I had been REMOVED from the Group without the webmistress even having the courtesy to TELL me--I had to learn it from this other person!--and not only because my apology had been ACCEPTED by the very person who kicked me out without giving me the chance to defend myself--but mainly because I EXPLAINED MY PRESENCE THERE THREE OR FOUR TIMES, AND *STILL* WAS NOT BELIEVED. I was kicked out--for being HONEST!

You see, being TOO honest--admitting that Ojibwa spirituality influences my FICTIONAL WRITING--was what started this crap. I wish I had never said that...but you know what? Now that I think of it I'm kind of glad I did. This hurts an incredible amount and it will take me time to get over the rage and injustice I feel at this but it's probably BEST I outed myself as a writer because frankly, I don't think I'd WANT to learn from people who can be so dishonest with me, and judge me so unfairly! I fully understand how they themselves are often misjudged--and then they did the same thing to me, by kicking me out after I told the truth, not believing me when I was repeatedly honest with them, and misassuming my motives. They JUDGED me because I am an outsider and because I dared to tell more about myself than I should have. Well, I wish I'd known they did not want honest people there.

I fully understand not everybody there was like this--the second member who invited me to the other Group, I hope--but all those people who refused to post because they didn't believe me? And the webmistress who ACCEPTED my apology--then kicked me out anyway? None of them could even TELL me I had made them feel uncomfortable, before banning me. (THEY had made me feel uncomfortable when they'd first questioned me, but I had accepted it! Nice repayment of my trust!) What sort of honesty is THAT? She didn't even have the decency to tell me this had happened. I had to learn it from someone else. I'm glad for that glitch which made me unable to access Groups. Otherwise I would have made such a fool of myself trying to figure out why I wasn't a member anymore. They wanted honesty from ME, but couldn't give it in return. Well, thank you a lot for that.

I tried going to that Ojibwa Group, BTW, tonight, just to try to copy what their main page says--I'm pretty sure it said people were welcome so long as they are respectful, and I WAS. But wouldn't you know...she has made it entirely private, invite only. Now how again is this for honesty and open discussion, learning, and tolerance? I admit I misstepped when I said I wrote, and again when I made that long upset post of mine, but I was NEVER once untruthful, I was upfront and honest and respectful, and I apologized repeatedly even after *I* felt *I* had been unfairly prejudged. I received forgiveness, which I felt was honest. And for all that I was then kicked out without even being informed, and banned completely, and other people's paranoia believed over my promises not to use their information, and the entire thing made private. And I don't even have recourse to apologize for BELIEVING THEM WHEN THEY SAID I WAS WELCOME THERE.

Remember that old Yahoo! dreams Group where they said EVERYONE was welcome and ANY kind of dream could be posted, then when I made VERY TAME, VAGUE ALLUSION to an adult-themed dream I had had, because I was desperate to learn what it meant, I was snootily informed that THAT kind of stuff wasn't allowed, and kicked out without a second word? Sound familiar?? I e-mailed that webmistress to inform her that perhaps she should modify the Group description to be HONEST and say that NOT everyone was welcome. Can't even do that, here!

I've written back to the second member just to ask what sort of post I should make in case I'm accepted into this second (non-Ojibwa-specific) Group. I feel so utterly humiliated, betrayed, and angered now, just because I told the TRUTH about myself. At the very least, the webmistress should have not posted that apology if she didn't mean it. At the very least, she could have given me a chance to defend myself BEFORE banning me, or at least, TOLD ME TO MY FACE THAT SHE WAS DOING SO. She relied on OTHER people's fears to incorrectly judge me (sound familiar?)...and even after that apology, which I fully believed, couldn't even say it to my face. I believed and respected her. I feel very hurt by this. This woman is someone who is highly believed and respected by other people, including me (once), and this is the kind of behavior she can succumb to. I truly hope this was an isolated instance or her vow of trying to teach other people is doomed.

I hope someday she comes to understand how alike her actions were to the very people who have hurt her own people for so many years. What happened to me doesn't compare, I realize, and I know I am here writing out of anger--but she *has* truly hurt me, and made me hesitant and fearful MYSELF of even trying to bother to learn about her culture. Why should I try to learn when I'll be treated like this?? She and the others in the Group got upset when they thought I was ignorant and was trying to steal their info. Well, so I promised I would not misuse their info, and asked for the chance to become NOT ignorant. If this is the price of trying to learn more then what is the point! It's easier to remain ignorant!

So she and the ones who wanted me kicked out are in fact responsible for perpetuating ignorance about their culture--the very thing they had hoped to avoid with their Group. I hope she understands this someday, because I will certainly never be able to tell her. She denied me that chance to be heard. Thank you a lot, Unnamed.

And now because of this I am afraid even of joining and posting to this OTHER Group, or to any such Groups--any such sites! I fully understand their need for suspicion toward people like me--but after you explain yourself, and especially AFTER forgiveness has been given, you would think that counts for something. These are people who pride themselves on honesty. I had hoped I could be believed too. But when suspicion turns into paranoia and unjust shunning (banning me without a word), it kind of puts a damper on wanting to learn about someone else's culture. *I* don't want to go through that rejection and humiliation yet again. So I asked this other person what sort of things I should say about myself--just so I don't go doing that again! And even as it is, I'll probably end up never asking about anything I wanted to learn at all! That's how embarrassed and fearful *I* am. Yes--this webmistress made me feel the exact same way she claims I made her OTHER members feel. Oh yes, how is it that other people's fear is immediately believed yet I'm not given the chance to voice mine? Sounds kind of discriminatory...at the very least she could have warned or reprimanded me first.

But no, I didn't deserve even that much. She accepted my apology, and forgave me, in one breath, then kicked me out and refused to grant me a final word in the next. How is that for honesty and learning?

So now, just because I showed respect and honesty toward this Group, in an attempt to learn more about them so I would no longer be so ignorant, I feel angry, hurt, humiliated, and betrayed beyond belief. I'm pretty sure that was not their goal when they formed that Group, but that's what they did.

And that's what honesty will get you nowadays. Absolutely nothing.